This is a transcript of the Beyond the Decks Podcast 007 with Mark Macleod. The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links that take you directly to that point in the main video. Please note that the transcript is machine generated, and may have errors. Here are some useful links:
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Outline
00:00:00 – Introduction
00:00:31 – Mark’s Early Experiences
00:02:20 – Challenges of DJing in the 90s
00:03:11 – Reviving Passion During COVID
00:04:10 – The Reality of Running Deep Down Music Label
00:12:08 – Artist Development and Support
00:14:15 – Music for Seekers Events
00:23:37 – Kundalini Yoga, Music & Spirituality
00:30:54 – Transition to Downtempo Music
00:39:25 – Fusion of Live, Future of Electronic Music
01:00:04 – Advice for Aspiring DJs and Producers
Introduction
(00:00:04)
Robert Simoes
Welcome everybody to the Beyond the Decks podcast, your guide to mastering the art and business of the DJing, dance and electronic music industry. As you can see again, we have escaped the metaverse. We are back in person in Toronto here, and I’m thrilled to be speaking with this gentleman here, Mark MacLeod, who has been a part of the Toronto rave scene since the 90s, originally growing up in Scotland on a pretty remote island named Lewis.
Mark’s Early Experiences
(00:00:31)
Mark Macleod
Yeah, Lewis Island of 3000 people. Yeah. Super remote.
(00:00:34)
Robert Simoes
And ventured into Toronto a little later in life. You were looking for a different opportunities based on what I read, and you kind of found your way into, I guess, business and technology.
(00:00:45)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. Mix. So, I grew up in a suburb of Toronto, Whitby, and, one of my good friends, Mike Stein, started what I believe to be the first rave company in Toronto called Pleasure Force in 1991, After he did, we graduated high school and he spent the summer in London, discovered rave, decided to bring it to Canada and my literal best friend to this day, Alex, who went by the name Alex Bender back then, took me to my first rave in 1992.
(00:01:20)
Robert Simoes
Ha ha ha ha ha. Well, I mean, since then, you’ve now gone on. I mean, you started producing music and then you started this label deep down electronic music, right? And you sort of have been heading that up for the past, I think 3 or 4 years at this point. Correct.
(00:01:34)
Mark Macleod
Almost three years. Yeah. If I take a step back. So, music’s a tough place to make it. Like the sole place where you make money obviously can happen, but for many it’s sort of like a side passion. And that’s what it was for me. So I was at, so rave in the in the 90s. I moved to Montreal in the late 90s and, became a club DJ club and afterhours DJ. Back when deejaying was hard and expensive and it was like vinyl and no waveforms and sync button and key detection, and it was like 15 bucks a record and you invariably just wanted one track. It was like 15 bucks a track. Yeah. And you do like a six hour, you know, weekday 9 p.m. to 3 a.m. set and have to lug so much vinyl with you in Montreal winters.
Challenges of DJing in the 90s
(00:02:20)
Mark Macleod
So it’s much easier to carry a USB stick now. So anyway, I did that for a really long time, and I was actually super passionate about it and had a manager and everything, and told my manager that I was going to quit my my job. I was CFO at a startup and going to try and make it, and he begged me not to because I was the only guy he managed who wasn’t like a strung out addict. And he’s like, imagine when you’re like 40 and you know you’re going to be playing to the people our age, like it’s going to suck and you’re probably not going to make it. And like 40 seemed really old then. Anyway. how old.
(00:02:54)
Robert Simoes
Were you at the time?
(00:02:55)
Mark Macleod
I was 29. Okay. Yeah. And, I took his advice. I was deeply offended, but I took his advice and.
(00:03:03)
Robert Simoes
Not gonna make it. Yeah.
(00:03:05)
Mark Macleod
And, anyway, so I was deejaying until I became a dad. and then kind of put that all on hold.
Reviving Passion During COVID
(00:03:11)
Mark Macleod
But I never lost the passion. And during Covid I just started making music and produced 20 tracks, most of them somewhere. And I was just like, I’m going to start a label like I. And I had some naivete, which I think it takes to start anything, where I said, like, there’s probably no one starting a label who has my business background. And at the risk of sounding like a d****.. money, like I can invest in it and make a go of it. I quickly discovered that for the genre that the label was in, which is progressive house like, progressive house is global, but it’s it’s really small. Like I just got back from Amsterdam dance event and like, realized it’s basically a village. Like if you think about the artist, like they’re all there, we all know each other. it’s a it’s a global sound, but, you know, takes so few sales to hit the charts in progressive house. And so, I wasn’t able to kind of fully deploy my business background on that one.
The Reality of Running Deep Down Music Label
(00:04:10)
Mark Macleod
But yeah, I ran it for three years. At its peak, it was top 50 in the world, and progressive House had some amazing artists. Well, you did you.
(00:04:19)
Robert Simoes
Some people like Dowden and a few others.
(00:04:21)
Mark Macleod
JMJ, Alex O’Ryan. Yeah. Big names.
(00:04:24)
Robert Simoes
And how did you I mean, so going I feel like some people who listen to this podcast, they’re at various stages and, you know, they might just be picking up their first DJ controller or whatever they might have been mixing for a couple of years. Maybe they have some gigs. But then there invariably comes this question of like, okay, you start making some tracks and maybe you want to create your own label, right? Everybody has their own sound of what they think. Sounds good. You sort of mentioned that you came at this at like a passion project kind of side thing, but what made you decide to turn it into a label of sorts instead of just shopping out? Maybe some of your tracks to other record labels.
(00:04:56)
Mark Macleod
Part of it was to, well, scratch my own itch, right? Like I have a deep business background. I was a CFO for companies for a long time, a venture capitalists, investing companies and investment banker selling companies. so I was trying to bring my passions together. That was was part of it also, to advocate a particular sound so deep down was very focused on deep progressive house. So not no bangers. Yeah, deeper sound. But Hernan Cattaneo might play at the beginning of a set or maybe like a sunrise, you know, sunset kind of vibe. but also I think and I actually think this is why most people start labels. It’s not because they expect to make money from the label. It’s actually just a vehicle to advance another purpose, which could be to advocate a particular sound that you don’t think is well covered. More often than not, it is to accelerate your career. as a DJ, as a DJ, right? To get bookings, right? Like, again, I don’t I don’t mean to make it sound like I’m old and grumpy and resentful, but it used to be hard and expensive to DJ.
(00:06:07)
Mark Macleod
It’s it’s a little easier now and it’s definitely a lot cheaper. And so there are lots of DJs. so how do you stand out. You stand out. So you brought up Dowden right. Like Downden ends up prolific producer. Right. And he’s got a signature sound. Right. And so if he stands out versus someone else who may have just as much skills as a DJ, but they don’t have their own productions like their own sounds. Right. And that’s a big draw for fans as well, right? You want to hear, like again, an Amsterdam dance event like it was Shazaming tracks. None of it worked. It’s like none of it’s released, right? Unreleased.
(00:06:44)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, yeah. White label everything. Yeah, yeah.
(00:06:46)
Mark Macleod
So like, you get to hear stuff that hasn’t come out yet, which is cool.
(00:06:51)
Robert Simoes
I feel we’ve talked about this on this podcast as well. Before this idea of like music becoming the marketing collateral for deejaying. And it seems like almost so flipped, like from an industry perspective, I don’t know, you would think that, like, the whole reason you’re doing this is because you want to evangelize for music instead of using music as the vehicle to evangelize the DJ.
(00:07:09)
Robert Simoes
How do you think about that?
(00:07:11)
Mark Macleod
I think there there’s a symbiotic relationship between the two. So one of my most talented artists, on Deep Down, is an artist who goes by the name of Solace. His real name is David. And, he was coming to Amsterdam dance event. I’ve done three releases with him. He’s classically trained musician, fabulous. But he’s not really much of a DJ. He’s played on controllers a few times and I was like, you’re coming to Amsterdam event. You’re going to play our party. And he’s a perfectionist. He was freaking out.
(00:07:41)
Robert Simoes
Like, he’s like, I got the playlist, I gotta do this on.
(00:07:43)
Mark Macleod
Some equipment. And he practiced anyway. But what he realized is like two things. One, there’s way more instant gratification from playing a track and seeing people react versus toiling for days and weeks in a studio. But it also makes you a better producer, and then the producing makes you a better DJ. You know, like realizing just basic things like, I need a minute intro and a minute outro for a DJ to do their thing and just understanding kind of just the yeah, the organization of a track and which elements work.
(00:08:15)
Mark Macleod
And like I tested an unreleased Deep Down track when I was there and I realized, oh, the breakdown is too long. So you really it really does feed you as a producer. Yeah. And then I actually think, again, I’m, I’ve, I’m now producing and like have the more I learn about production, the more I realize I don’t know. And so yeah.
(00:08:38)
Robert Simoes
It’s a but it’s like a.
(00:08:39)
Mark Macleod
Bottomless pit and never ending. Right. And but I actually think deejaying should be reserved solely as an award for those people who toil in the studio.
(00:08:51)
Robert Simoes
Interesting. So you think almost that like, you know, and we’ve talked about this as well, that we’re in a producer kind of driven economy for deejaying. Right. But you think that’s almost warranted in some way versus.
(00:09:05)
Mark Macleod
Yeah, because, you know, like, again, it could be different in different genres. Tech houses as an examples, way bigger than progressive house. but like you’re not living off those royalties. Right. Like the money in music has actually always been in playing out and in merchandising.
(00:09:27)
Mark Macleod
And you know, unless you’re on a spreadsheet or someone, you’re not selling much merch. Yeah. So it’s really about playing out like, so if you’re really serious about music, you have to deejay.
(00:09:38)
Robert Simoes
Right? Do you think that I mean, so you mentioned this has always been the case, right? But obviously this has maybe been more accentuated in the the time of royalties from your perspective on, you know, coming from a business background and running deep down, like, is that something that you think about when you’re signing a track like, is this going to generate a lot of streaming plays, or how are you thinking about when you’re signing the track? Is it more around the alignment of the sound? Obviously they’re all factors, but I’m just curious when you’re trying to approach this from a business mindset where you want to make a label viable, right? At the end of the day, there’s operating expenses to run a label, you know, somebody has to do all the copyright registration and things like that.
(00:10:13)
Robert Simoes
So I’m just curious how you think about that. Is it just completely neglected from the equation?
(00:10:17)
Mark Macleod
It’s not. It’s a balancing act. First and foremost it’s the music. But You know, deep down was ultimately an active service. And it’s like I gained from it. Right? I got into the industry and, have accelerated my own career as a producer. It’s led to my new project, but it was an active service. And what I mean by that is like, if I got a track from, a new artist, I knew it wouldn’t sell well, so I would go and pay and get a big remixer for it. So, as an example, an amazing artist named Thomas Garcia in Argentina, he sent me this really stunning track. And, I got Dimitri to remix and dmitri’s a pretty big deal in progressive house. And, fast forward a year and the remix really brought a ton of attention to the whole release. I got videos of that remix being played all over the world, but that gave attention to Thomas and he had other releases by you.
(00:11:22)
Mark Macleod
Fast forward a year and now Thomas is releasing on Dimitri’s label, which gives them way more exposure. So there’s there’s lots of stories like that. so that was a big strategy for me. It was, I would, I would get if it was a younger producer who didn’t have a following yet, I would invest in a remixer. And so by Definition. I was losing money on those releases, but it was a conscious decision.
(00:11:49)
Robert Simoes
And like we’ve covered the idea of reciprocity in the music industry a lot. And so I guess for somebody who’s a new artist coming up, they would look at like that as an example of like, holy crap, like, this guy’s investing to help my, my career. Do you have you found in your experience then then that comes back and and assist you in some ways.
Artist Development and Support
(00:12:08)
Mark Macleod
Again just came back from Amsterdam, saw many of my artists for the first time. I announced shortly before I left that I was kind of handing over the keys on the label and like so my distributor, proton manages 2000 labels, most of which are progressive House.
(00:12:24)
Mark Macleod
There’s lots of labels. We were showered with love when, you know, I kind of announced the news on Deep Down. And so many people told me that, a deep down really mattered to them, that they really admired the personal touch, you know, record a little reel before each track. I talk about the track, I talk about the artist. So many of these artists are close friends now. Like, my WhatsApp is just this amazing collection of people all over the world who share my disease passion for music. Yeah, so they really felt that personal touch. And so I’m on the other end now as a producer, and, it’s only a few labels I’ve worked with. But here’s the contract. This is when the asset came. I have to ask them for like, can you give me the cover and some stuff so I can do some marketing, like not well run, you know, and we did everything super professionally. We gave them lots of assets to, to promote the release themselves.
(00:13:29)
Mark Macleod
Yeah, right. I made checked in with them. How are you doing? And you’re working on some new music with, you know, just even if you don’t want to send it to us, I just want to hear it. Just give me, like, we just were super close to them. And so I think that really stood out. Yeah.
(00:13:42)
Robert Simoes
Developing those relationships then long term payoff because I guess either in the form of like getting unreleased tracks, which is a, you know, another big asset as a DJ, if you’re planning out live, as well as I imagine finding home for your own music. you know, for sure going forward. But you did mention, you know, you decided very recently that you’re going to be taking a step back. Step away from deep down, you know, music to work on something new. Yes. And that new thing is music for seekers, if I’m not mistaken. Correct. Can you please tell us a little bit about that?
Music for Seekers Events
(00:14:15)
Mark Macleod
Yeah, yeah.
(00:14:15)
Mark Macleod
So my biggest passions in life outside of obviously my profession, is well is music and spirituality. And so music that’s been lifelong. My dad was the lead singer in the biggest band on the island, and so I just grew up with music. I was a drummer in a rock band in high school. Blissfully, this was before social media and smartphones, so there’s no Did you.
(00:14:40)
Robert Simoes
Have long hair or something? I had.
(00:14:41)
Mark Macleod
Long permed.
(00:14:42)
Robert Simoes
Hair. We gotta go. We have to get it fixed. I had, like.
(00:14:44)
Mark Macleod
Lumber jackets with the sleeves cut off so you could see how big my arms were. They weren’t that big. So music has always been a thing. And spirituality I’ve come at slowly but steadily. I started doing yoga in my 20s, frankly, because women looked hot in Lululemon like a horrible reason. But I really liked how I felt. And you know, I was like, type a hard driving, always working executive. And it was a counterbalance. And, one day I discovered this thing called Kundalini.
(00:15:20)
Mark Macleod
I was like, I don’t know what this is. I’m going to try it. Super weird, but boy, did I feel different afterwards.
(00:15:27)
Robert Simoes
Can you tell us a little bit about like, what Kundalini is for somebody who’s. Yeah.
(00:15:30)
Mark Macleod
So Kundalini. So yoga is like the kind of yoga we do in the West is hatha based. You’re doing asana. So you know What you would do in a normal class like downward dog. Oh, those kinds of pools. Exactly. Those kinds of poses. And that’s really just one tiny like Ashtanga, which is a style of yoga that just that that means eight limbs. And so the physical practice is only one of those limbs. And there’s actually the purpose of yoga as a whole is to calm the fluctuations of the mind, meaning to prepare you for meditation. And that’s where all the magic happens. And so Kundalini has as its foundation asana, because you have to, especially in our busy Western minds, we have and just go, go, go.
(00:16:14)
Mark Macleod
And on our devices you have to get out of your head and into your body before you can do anything. And that’s usually where a traditional Western class begins and ends. You know, maybe there’s a tiny little bit of meditation at the end, but so the whole idea with the premise behind Kundalini is that we all have this dormant energy kind of at the base of our spine and our first chakra, and through a combination of the physical movement asana through breathwork, through, bands which are locked. So you kind of activate this energy, you send it up, you use locks to harness it, you send energy up ultimately to your crown chakra and connect to source, not to get too woo woo on you. And, that’s been my main practice for 12 years, and I’m already completed a 300 hour teacher training in it, and now I’m just doing a 200 hour kind of to like, so I can actually teach.
(00:17:12)
Robert Simoes
and so so you had the spirituality in the music then?
(00:17:15)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. They all came together and like, how do you put those? So I went on a big yoga thing.
(00:17:21)
Mark Macleod
Sorry. Like I can talk forever about that and we’re going to.
(00:17:23)
Robert Simoes
Talk about it. Yeah.
(00:17:25)
Mark Macleod
So with music I so you look at club culture today and there’s a lot that I don’t love about it. first of all, I’m 54. I don’t feel like staying up to 5 a.m. I try and avoid that whenever humanly possible. I hate, bottle service. I hate that when people go out, it’s like, look at me. Status. that if I’m all of these are generalizations, there’s obviously exceptions to all of this. But like where it’s more about being seen and it’s more about being partying and getting drunk or getting high than it is about the music. And and so like you know tech House has overtaken techno number one genre and Beatport now and there’s some great tech house but most of it is two dimensional disposable bullsh*t. And I could make a tech house banger in like 30 minutes.
(00:18:25)
Robert Simoes
Well actually there’s videos of, you know, famous DJs doing just that. Right. Yeah. Exactly.
(00:18:29)
Robert Simoes
And I guess you. But please.
(00:18:31)
Mark Macleod
Continue. Yeah. And so I just thought there’s a better way like you know music that is, positive has explicit spiritual elements and intentions. So that could be a mantra chanting binaural beats. We could talk about those indigenous drums. If you think about the most inspired artists in any field. Could be music, could be visual arts, whatever. Think about that word inspired. What does it mean in spirit? I have connected to spirit. That’s the source of that amazing creativity, right? I want that kind of music, not the disposable music. Right. And so music for seekers has, first of all, started off as an event brand. And we had our first event in June. I’m partnering with Ozz, who’s been running the osmosis events for 15 years in Toronto on the event. And so I cannot think of a better partner to work with on that. And, you know, our first event is different. First of all was daytime, right? It ended at 10 p.m..
(00:19:35)
Mark Macleod
And you know I, we always want to have the sun be around at some point even if it just at the beginning and then it goes down. There’s no life without the sun. We want to have maybe some kind of spiritual activation. Maybe at the beginning it could be a cacao ceremony, a little breathwork, something to just bring us all together. and then, you know, music that’s that’s really positive, right? That’s not just these kind of bangers that you need to be on dr*gs to enjoy. And so that first event and then ideally we live in a cold climate. So this is not a year round thing. But that first event kind of had an indoor outdoor aspect to it. People could kind of just come and go. And they were telling me afterwards that they had converse and we didn’t facilitate this. We just provided the container and the intention. But people were telling me that they had conversations at that event and connections, that event, that that event that they’ve never had before.
(00:20:31)
Mark Macleod
And so I find that deeply meaningful and the real hope. So we’re hoping to do our second event soon and get into more of a cadence of events, kind of in 2025 and beyond. My real hope is to maybe foster some ongoing community, be in touch with people in between events, offer them tools and tips to access whatever spirituality means for them. Right. And spirituality is distinct from religion, right? You know, religion is inherently divisive. It’s actually probably the number one source of death in the world historically. We’re seeing that right now in Gaza. spirituality is different. It’s universal. And I think society is pretty unconscious. So if nothing else, I just want to help people become conscious. Right? Like go into that yoga class because you like Lululemon pants and then maybe stay because you really connected with your breath and you’re like, oh, that’s what it feels like to breathe. Wow. Yeah. And I can tell you, like, I have a busy day and then I, you know, I practice every day.
(00:21:45)
Mark Macleod
It just takes a few breaths to completely change your state. You know, so I want to provide that.
(00:21:52)
Robert Simoes
Even even I think Tony Robbins talks a little bit about this in his, some of his, you know he says this idea to change your psychology, change your physiology. Right. So he does that. I don’t know what he calls this move, but he’s like it’s a combination of breathwork and movement. And you know, if I go to asana, for example, I find myself doing that sometimes because it activates a, I don’t know how you would describe it, but it definitely changes and alters your state a little bit. So would you say that you view kind of music for seekers as a, as a vehicle for, I guess expanding people’s purview or horizons as to, you know, the whole scope of their life, like connections. They could have communities they could be involved with. the music, I guess, that they could be exposed to.
(00:22:31)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. I mean, still fleshing it out, which is actually one of the reasons why there’s been such a gap between the events.
(00:22:37)
Mark Macleod
You know, like one of the debates we had was like, do we make the events alcohol free? but right now we’re just sort of meeting people where they are. Yeah. If you want to drink, cool. If you don’t want to drink, we’ll have lots of alternatives. so we’re not kind of judging and saying it’s a certain way. So I haven’t nailed all the aspects kind of outside of the music policy I guess. but I want to build a real community. Right. And just, you know, like I’m studying to be a Kundalini teacher now because I’m so passionate about it. It’s completely changed my life. Right. And you know, I, I just want to share that with people and then they take whatever they want from it. Right. They don’t have to, I don’t know, cover their head like they do. and like I do every morning and chant they don’t like. That’s a little too extreme. Just. But like, even if you just like. So like my day job is coaching startup CEOs.
Kundalini Yoga, Music & Spirituality
(00:23:37)
Mark Macleod
And sometimes when they showed up right there on like this is their seventh zoom call in a row and they’re completely frazzled and like that’s just like take a breath. That’s all right. Right. How are you. Yeah. So even just giving people a little tools like that. Right.
(00:23:52)
Robert Simoes
So how do you bring, I guess, around that philosophy that you have about in spirit back to your music when you’re coming up and showing up in the studio, is there different practices that you use? Do you, for example, do you practice yoga prior to getting into the studio? Do you have any rituals or things that you do to prepare that creative inspiration to work in the studio?
(00:24:13)
Mark Macleod
Yeah, that’s a great question. so I do I practice yoga every morning. That’s the very first thing I do when I wake up. First hours on the mat. so I’m already tuned in. I also many producers like to produce at night. I, I don’t, I like to produce actually in the morning when I’m freshest.
(00:24:30)
Mark Macleod
So I’m often there already. lots of little rituals. I have this, a lava lamp I can’t even begin producing until that thing’s been running for an hour. And the little balls are kind of floating up. Okay, I’ll light some incense. Yeah, I have a big statue of Ganesh, there. And Ganesh is the remover of obstacles, and so he’s there to kind of help me just go. one of the things I really love about Kundalini Yoga specifically, is we all have most of us operate just from our rational mind, which is maybe 10% of what we’re capable of. and through accessing this energy and sending it up through the chakras, we actually and by the way, while this is absolutely, I realize for anyone watching or listening, this sounds super woowoo, but this is actually documented in science. So Doctor Joe Dispenza and others have have, you know, put sensors on people’s brains and watch this u turn on dormant parts of your brain. And this is a very long segue to come back to your question.
(00:25:33)
Mark Macleod
So I’ve been doing this for 12 years and like, my intuition is bonkers. Like in my coaching practice, I’ll know exactly what question to ask. Or a CEO will bring up a topic that I’ve literally never thought of in my life, and we’ll just spend an hour going deep. And so it’s the same thing in music. Like where, It just sort of flows out. It’s not me. and afterwards I’m like, where the heck I’m from? Yeah. You know, if I’m like, totally just locked in, you just this is the the exact right sound. This is the place to do it. You know, like the to actually have a created track will take many sessions, but I find to get the hook to lay down. the loops that will form the track. All of that happens pretty easily in one session, and I find if it’s not, if it doesn’t kind of flow, I haven’t actually tapped in properly. Right. I’m struggling too hard and I’ll just I’ll go away and come back.
(00:26:40)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. Forcing it almost.
(00:26:42)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. You can’t force it. Yeah. I find.
(00:26:43)
Robert Simoes
I mean it’s fascinating that you talk about that because I think of some of the times that I’ve produced tracks with melodies that I like, and it’s often from like, very like I’m walking back from like a yoga studio or a gym or something, and then just something comes up and I’m like, yeah.
(00:26:57)
Mark Macleod
It was like a brain to door interface, like a little thing like, like I would be the most prolific producer, but a lot of it’s lost in translation going from here to the keys.
(00:27:08)
Robert Simoes
Why do you think that is?
(00:27:11)
Mark Macleod
Well, I you know, because first of all, I’m not a trained musician, you know? working on a track right now in F-sharp minor and literally have like an image. Well, first of all, when I was writing the melody for it, I literally put post-it notes on the keys I was allowed to use. Right? Like, so there’s that. Yeah. Like, yeah.
(00:27:36)
Mark Macleod
so but a big part of it is like, again, you if your brain is flowing, you’re using your whole brain, like your intuitive mind, your subconscious, which is just way more powerful than my fingers ability to kind of record that, you know. Yeah.
(00:27:55)
Robert Simoes
So I guess there’s different, different kinds of like construct like I think, for example, if I’m producing something and I love strings, for example. Right. And it’s just like something will come in and I’m like, oh, okay, we need this sort of progressive melody up here. And like you said, it all kind of flows in to one cohesive piece.
(00:28:11)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. I mean, you know, this is why I called music a disease. like, we I was having an exchange where we have a group of friends who are very passionate about music. someone brought up this week, boy George is set at System Sound Bar in Toronto in 1998. And they were trying to remember what style of music he played. I remember the set.
(00:28:37)
Mark Macleod
I was able to describe to them the style of mixing. It was like early tech house when fabric in London was kind of coming up. I remember his mixes. Like I go to a club and like I am just, I think any anyone who’s very serious about production or DJing is the same way. Like we’re just, you’re not, you’re very actively listening. Right. You’re just absorbing everything. So you do that long enough, it just becomes part of your DNA. Which is why, like, I don’t know if I’m to be frank, coming down after a big night at a club, I’m just inventing tracks in my head. Which is why, again, if I could just plug in a USB cable and have them flow out, then I’d be the most prolific producer ever. Yeah.
(00:29:23)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, but to get back, to get back to the music for seekers. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s kind of this conduit. You sort of want to expand people’s, you know, connection with themselves.
(00:29:34)
Robert Simoes
Right. And you’re, you’re using, you know, the modalities, I guess, of music community, chanting and mantras and things like that. But you also mentioned this positive aspect of music, right? And I think some of the productions you’ve, you’ve been making more recently tend to fall into a more downtempo, organic house. From my observation, it seems that this kind of organic house, playa, black rock, city sound, it does have a lot of that kind of positivity. And, I just got back, I played a set at, like the sauna, ice baths, your other other ship. And it was, it was really interesting because of the ambience of the place, the, you know, the way that they set up this sauna and it’s alcohol free, phone free. And yet they’re they’re stimulating community. They’re stimulating socially socializing. But they’re using, you know, different physical somatic states to allow people to access and lower their inhibitions in some way in a positive and healthy way.
(00:30:29)
Robert Simoes
And I couldn’t think of anything else to play but some kind of variant of down tempo and organic house because of the positivity, the dreaminess, the uplifting side. So you’ve mentioned that you’ve, you know, you’ve you with deep down you were doing a lot of progressive house. And then more recently you’ve been foraying into downtempo. So can you tell us a little bit about what what was the transition and how are you feeling inspired today?
Transition to Downtempo Music
(00:30:54)
Mark Macleod
Yeah, I’ve actually always loved downtempo. I’ve had a secret love affair with it for a long time and you know, like even with progressive house, like we released music that was on the deeper end. And I bring that up because I feel that in music, space or the absence of sound is as important to the experience of the track itself as the sound, and so on. Those big bangers, it’s just there’s no space, there’s no consonant, right? Yeah, yeah. Whereas in the kind of progressive house that deep down release there is and in downtempo there definitely is.
(00:31:30)
Mark Macleod
Right? So you see downtempo a lot in yoga, in ecstatic dance. And it just gives you room to kind of more freely express and interpret and let your body just start moving itself, which is probably why it lent itself so well to the other ship environment. Right. So that’s a thing. And then, you know, if you think of organic house. So the number one label, an organic house by far is all daydream. All Day I Dream. And right. Lee Burrage started that not with this kind of big spiritual intention. He started it because he recognized that, well, first of all, he was getting older. Like me. He and I are probably these were similar vintages, you know, and, it’s getting a little tired of the regular club scene, but you just noticed it was just like dudes and like, how do we create something that creates a more mixed dance floor? That’s actually the origin of.
(00:32:23)
Robert Simoes
The origin of it.
(00:32:24)
Mark Macleod
Okay. And together with his partner, like they were just trading these tracks back and forth that were not spiritually intended specifically but were more positive, more inviting, not dark, more emphasis on melody.
(00:32:42)
Mark Macleod
Right. I’m completely stereotyping, but certainly speaking to my wife like one of her favorite artists. Is Sebastian legit? What is he known for? Crazy melody. Right. So me I like give me a nice groove. Give me like baseline is the most important thing to me.
(00:33:00)
Robert Simoes
For you okay.
(00:33:01)
Mark Macleod
Absolutely. But for her it’s melody. I think that’s true for a lot of women. So organic House is first of all, actually, it’s just deep house, but, It’s, deep house with maybe tighter, almost progressive like percussion, but.
(00:33:21)
Robert Simoes
Hypnotic.
(00:33:22)
Mark Macleod
Even very hypnotic. Yeah. has the same kind of progression, like, of layers that you see in a progressive house track. But it’s far more inclusive. Right. And so the down tempo is Yeah. Like I say long standing passion for me, that same element of kind of there space or silence. So there’s room to move. and it’s very diverse. So like sometimes you’ll see it like I say in exotic dance, you’ll see it if you look at the streams for down tempo tracks versus the streams for progressive tracks.
(00:34:02)
Mark Macleod
Down tempo dwarfs progressive really many times. Well, because I can be sitting in an office, the inclusivity of it, you know, whatever. I don’t have to be in a club. Yeah, it could be chillin on my drive home I just want to relax. But on some downtime, right?
(00:34:19)
Robert Simoes
Can we talk a little bit about what I see is very fascinating, which has been like the penetration of electronic music into like, mainstream consciousness. I mean, you mentioned this with the aspect of like deejaying becoming so accessible, right? Everybody wants to be deejay, maybe for perhaps different reasons. Right. I’ve talked to some people who seem maybe a bit more preoccupied with the fame aspect. Yeah, some people who appreciate the music, some people maybe don’t know yet. but I find it pretty outstanding even just walking around here in a major city like Toronto. Like, you can hear that hat on the on the for on the third, third position right of of the the four bar beat. And yet it’s, it still feels like I don’t know like electronic music is like an underdog underdog type of genre.
(00:35:06)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. how do you think about that with regard to like, molding tastes like being a DJ. My perspective is always one of I think it’s it’s critical to play this role of like musical evangelism, right? Finding and expanding the horizons of the people. Right? Exposing, going to the set I did at other ship. Like it was incredible how many people came up to me and they were like, what is this? Right. And I think when we’re on our own little niche, we don’t realize how much we are in a little bubble. So how do you deal with this? What would you say? Friction. Where on one hand you find something really new, really novel that you know is good, but then you also have to cater to perhaps the existing tastes that, like you mentioned, if you’re doing a standard nightclub and people are wanting bottle covers, they want to hear like tech house bangers, like, how do you as a DJ manage that internally?
(00:36:04)
Mark Macleod
I will tell you that I sell my soul once a year because my wife loves tech house because we have parties at our house.
(00:36:13)
Mark Macleod
In fact, we have a sunken room that has this velvet security rope like you have in a club to let people in in our house. And once a year she’ll have all her girlfriends over and I will sell my soul and play tech. the rest of the time I don’t. It’s tough. Like I the mechanical aspect of deejaying isn’t the thing. It’s easy. It’s always been about track selection and telling a story and curating and taking people somewhere. So maybe sometimes you got to start where they are, but then you got to bring them along. So I played, the closing party for a tech conference in Scotland last year. so these are now the UK in general, by the way. Electronic music is actually quite mainstream. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But I started off with like vocal deep house still underground. It still has to be. First of all, I have to own it. So it has to be something I like. Yeah, but I started off with almost like old Derrick Carter style vibes, like, you know, lots of local Chicago house.
(00:37:24)
Mark Macleod
But then I just got edgier and edgier as the night went on and people inhibitions wore off and it was dirty by the end, you know? But if I hadn’t started dirty, I would have just cleared the dance floor. Right. So you got to meet people where they are. But I think you still have to play stuff that you love.
(00:37:42)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, well, even even going back to what you mentioned about ecstatic dance, like I’ve just been observing this trend of, like, alternative venues of deejaying and alternative modalities. like on a previous episode, I was talking to Andre Delgado. He’s he’s a drummer based DJ, and we were talking about this guy who did drum and bass on a bike. and then you mentioned, for example, Ecstatic Dance, which is another. And it kind of Opens up the horizons for things that you can play. Which I don’t know if. Going back to what you mentioned about music being a disease, it’s sort of like the more exposure you get, the more novelty you need to find in order to keep yourself entertained.
(00:38:21)
Robert Simoes
but just seeing that, for example, I could be in an ecstatic dance and somebody’s just playing violins and I’m like, whoa. Like, this would not be expecting that my body would be doing this. But it is. Yeah.
(00:38:33)
Mark Macleod
There’s a Toronto artist, who goes by his name, Shane, but he goes goes by the name of Dante. He’s a down tempo artist, very spiritual. He’s self-proclaimed hippy. And, he divides his time between Toronto and Tulum in the winter. But he often by he’ll be, he’ll have beats going loops that he’s made but then he’s playing guitar on top of it. He’s got a vocalist, he’s got. I saw a set that he did with a partner in like the Colombian jungle with a cellist, which, when me think of it. So bringing this fusion of for electronic and organic live and loop based, like real acoustic and electronic samples. Like bringing all of this fusion together and you hear an organic house and in downtempo, these sounds like, that exist in the real world.
Fusion of Live, Future of Electronic Music
(00:39:25)
Mark Macleod
Like I just finished a remix, using flute. Yeah. You know, and you would never have that in progressive house. For progressive house, it’s all about sound design and coming up with a sound that nobody’s ever heard before. Whereas those genres use sounds that we that we know.
(00:39:43)
Robert Simoes
With going to what you mentioned here around, you know, even just bring like these destination DJ sets or productions that you mentioned. Right. Bringing cellos into the jungle like this has been another big trend is DJs again trying to differentiate themselves, trying to market themselves using destination sets or live streams. But now we also come up with, you know, new technologies that are coming out, you know, like I used it once. Spotify DJ. You know, I thought it was horrible. Yeah, but, you know, assuming things are gonna keep improving, how do you think about the future for the DJ and for music production generally?
(00:40:16)
Mark Macleod
When I looked at the end of the year, even the promotions of Beatport were running.
(00:40:19)
Mark Macleod
So Beatport is where most DJs buy their music. The thing they were promoting was the Beatport streaming service.
(00:40:26)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, right. They fixed the site just to just to do that. Yeah, yeah.
(00:40:31)
Mark Macleod
So that’s sort of an inevitable direction, I think that counter that many people in the industry bring is like, well, the big DJs play the tracks that aren’t out yet. And so, you know, that’s that’s always going to be a thing. But the real market is, is definitely in streaming. So I think that’s, that’s that’s what was the origin of your question again, because I feel like I went on a tangent. Let me come back. Well, I’m.
(00:40:56)
Robert Simoes
Just curious what what you think, you know, there seems like there’s all these pressure forces, right? Oh, yeah. Like. Yeah. Okay. You think about trying to compete in a major city, right? You need to produce music before you can get gigs, weirdly enough. Right? and then you have, you know, I look at, for example, YouTube and I just see these, like, insane production values.
(00:41:16)
Robert Simoes
And sometimes it looks like the videos that blow up are more focused on the destination and or like the quality of the video than necessarily like the music. Yeah. and I guess the romantic idealist in me is like, yeah, but it’s about this track selection, it’s about the music. So I’m just curious, with all these pressures, I guess. Where do you see the, you know, the future looking in? Maybe the next like five years. Will there be still desire for for human DJs?
(00:41:43)
Mark Macleod
Oh yeah. For sure, for sure. I mean, you know, I have I was like, I, I’ve been in the tech industry as my day job since 1999. I have mixed feelings about AI for music. Yeah, because there’s already too much music. There’s 80,000 songs uploaded. Spotify every day. I heard it.
(00:42:00)
Robert Simoes
Was 25,000 for Beatport every.
(00:42:01)
Mark Macleod
Day, 25,000 every week.
(00:42:03)
Robert Simoes
On Beatport every week. Okay, okay.
(00:42:04)
Mark Macleod
And, so there’s already too much music. Yeah. You know, and so I know what my numbers were for deep down in the example, I could never have made a living with deep down.
(00:42:20)
Mark Macleod
And yet deep down was so far ahead of 90% of other labels. Yeah. Right. And so it’s there’s already too much music, I guess is where I’m going. Right. And so I is just going to further reduce the barriers and result in more music coming out. and so I think I hope that there will be a few things. One, a flight to quality. So people like my classically trained musician that I was telling you about, who frantically taught himself to DJ, by the way, he crushed it, which I knew he would. So hopefully there’ll be more of that. I think you have to have a genuine story and there’s different ways to do that. It could be. So for me, like genuinely exploring spirituality and just authentically wanting to bring it to people could be like people could resonate like, I like what he’s doing. I’m he’s not just a DJ. I’m going to go check him out. Right. Because he’s on this personal mission as a DJ. I followed for a really long time at a turkey.
(00:43:37)
Mark Macleod
She’s now in Spain named Elif. We actually named our dog after her. Elif in Turkish means bringer of light, which she definitely does. And Elif has 80,000 followers on Instagram now and tours all over the world. Is it because she’s so much better than the other DJs? No. Is it because she produces all the time? No, because she’s actually too busy touring to produce. But from the beginning she shared her life. She was really authentic, super open, engaged, like so big emphasis on social media. We could hate on that and be like, oh, it should be about the music. But whatever. She’s touring and the people are complaining that it’s it shouldn’t be about that or not. Right. So there’s different ways to build. I think people have to feel this connection to you. It can’t just be about the music because the music’s everywhere, right? There’s so, so there has to be something else that brings you to follow that artist. Right. and building a community out of it.
(00:44:37)
Mark Macleod
Right. So if you have that then, you know, I used there’s a concept again, I come from the startup world and I used to be a venture capitalist investing in startups. And there was an essay written many years ago called 1000. True.
(00:44:51)
Robert Simoes
I was going to bring that up by Kevin Kelly.
(00:44:53)
Mark Macleod
So I always told myself with deep down, like, I just need 100 superfans. If I have 100 superfans who buy every release, we will chart every release, which then means bigger and bigger names would be like I want to release on Deep Down, which will attract more superfans. It’ll be like the slow building but virtuous cycle, right? And so I think artists have to take the same mentality. Right? And just be genuine. I think the only way to survive long term is to do it for its own sake, to do it because you have to not do it because of the fame. Right. And if you’re doing it because you’re attached to some end state, you will be constantly thinking about the absence of that state, right? I don’t want to bring up Law of Attraction.
(00:45:42)
Mark Macleod
I don’t actually believe in the Law of Attraction, but it’s sort of along those lines like, like Viktor Frankl wrote, the people who were in the concentration camps who thought they were going to be out by Christmas, were the first ones to die because they lost hope when Christmas came and gone. So if you enter the industry because I want to be famous and you are not famous. Yeah.
(00:46:06)
Robert Simoes
In like a year or a year and a half or two years.
(00:46:08)
Mark Macleod
Versus I’m just doing this because I have to. I love this music so much. Yeah, right. Completely different intention, different energy. And I’ll tell you so. So I had artists across the whole spectrum who were in deep down like ones who are super established, making like their entire living out of it, and others who had a day job and just happened to produce a beautiful track. And I fell in love with it and I released it, the whole continuum. But one of my artists in particular, who lives in Serbia, is really his career is really starting to take off.
(00:46:44)
Mark Macleod
And he shared with me quite openly about how the thing that he’s wanted and worked towards for years, he struggles with in some way because it’s tough.
(00:46:55)
Robert Simoes
Like the act of making, like making a living from the music.
(00:47:00)
Mark Macleod
More of the toll that it takes on him, on him emotionally. The touring.
(00:47:04)
Robert Simoes
Oh the touring. Okay.
(00:47:05)
Mark Macleod
And because I guess that’s constant demands to remix. Like, you know, like I, like I told you we talked about earlier like if I’m not feeling it in a session I walk away. Maybe he can’t because he just has to keep banging out the remixes because he’s got these commitments and, and then like the constant changing of time zones. Right. It’s just not healthy. You know so he’s really struggling with it and really thinking about okay is this my true purpose. You know.
(00:47:31)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. And I think it’s oh there’s so much in there to to dig into the one comment I wanted to make about the, the the expectation of the end goal, it just reminded me so much of Krishnamurti, one of these Indian philosophers who has this concept of like it’s the becoming that is the obstacle, like to the desire to become something, to become a, you know, I want to become a Tomorrowland DJ.
(00:47:54)
Robert Simoes
I want to become this great thing like that is in some way the obstacle, because that sets up the expectation, which is this like dual problem, because on one hand, maybe that’s also what gets you up to go do the things that you have to do in order to get the outcome you want. But in some ways it’s also like I think, for example, about some difficulties that I’ve had with DJing where I’ve been frustrated because I have a particular sound that I want to advocate for and I don’t see, you know, the, the appetite for it, let’s say. And then you sort of get wrapped up in this mind game where you’re jealous, you’re envious, you’re doing comparisons, all this stuff. Social media doesn’t make that any easier.
(00:48:29)
Mark Macleod
No. You’re comparing 100% of what you know about yourself to the 5% you think you know about someone else. And then so the Dalai Lama has this to say about comparison. It is the thief of joy. Nothing good comes from comparison, but.
(00:48:43)
Robert Simoes
At the same time, it’s a very human thing. And I mean, it’s it’s challenging because, you know, imitation is how we learn, right? We imitate to learn language, we imitate to learn music production. We imitate to DJ, right? Or you just spend hours toiling in the dark like me until you’re right and you’re just like, how does any of this work? but the, you know, this comparison. But also you brought up a good point around the, the touring. Right? And that’s a, you know, on one hand, it’s like this is maybe the goal. A lot of people who listen to the podcast or who want to get into DJing, they think is like, oh, this is my end goal. But then there’s also the like, non luxurious or glamorous parts.
(00:49:17)
Mark Macleod
Not glamorous, not glamorous. One of my artists flew 20 hours or a 16, whatever, let’s call it 16 hours to Sri Lanka. Played a set. Arrived in the morning.
(00:49:33)
Mark Macleod
Played a set, got on a plane at 1 a.m. and flew 16 hours home. Like that’s not glamorous there and back.
(00:49:41)
Robert Simoes
Yeah.
(00:49:41)
Mark Macleod
Right. Not glamorous. Yeah. my favorite progressive DJ Hernan Caetano. Like His schedule for ad like makes me weep. Like it’s so bad. And I’ve just watched him age and he takes care of himself. He doesn’t party. He doesn’t drink. He’s. He’s vegetarian. Like he takes care of himself.
(00:50:08)
Robert Simoes
And it still takes a toll.
(00:50:09)
Mark Macleod
It still takes a toll. Yeah. Circadian rhythm. How can it not? Yeah.
(00:50:12)
Robert Simoes
Well, I mean, even look, I mean, what happened to Avicii, right? Like that whole. And I don’t know if you saw the True Stories documentary, but, they did they did one on him and just I think it was like normal artists. I can’t remember the number of times normal artists tour, but he did like almost the same number of tours in a year or like a number of days in a year.
(00:50:31)
Robert Simoes
Right? So he was just constantly going and, you know, in the end it was just so much for him and mentally and everything. And it was interesting then how his sound changed and everything like that. But I think that that side of it is, is really important to also talk about, because it’s then you also have the partying side, which is something we’ve talked about before, which is, you know, like a lot of sometimes DJs, they really get into the partying, right? They get very intoxicated or they’re doing all these things which both impacts their their performance, their reputation and their.
(00:51:00)
Mark Macleod
Longevity and their longevity.
(00:51:02)
Robert Simoes
Right. But at the same time, I guess you have some of the people, like, you know, who have been doing this for years and years and years, right? Whether they’re DJing over at Pacha and in places in Ibiza and that kind of thing. I did want to get back to something you said previously though, you mentioned, you know, you used to be venture capitalist.
(00:51:18)
Robert Simoes
Now you’re advising startups. And it’s interesting because you’re kind of like living this dual life, right, where on one hand you’re doing this, you know, music, tech or not music, but technology business. And then you also have the music. And it’s funny because I, I was it just completely reminded me of, I don’t know if you know, the CEO of Goldman Sachs. Oh yeah.
(00:51:35)
Mark Macleod
Yeah for sure.
(00:51:36)
Robert Simoes
Who is a DJ?
(00:51:38)
Mark Macleod
Yeah.
(00:51:39)
Robert Simoes
but was, you know, forced to step away from, from doing the DJing just due to, I don’t know, like, I guess concerns around that. How do you, how do you manage that duality in yourself.
(00:51:49)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. So I guess, first of all, I’m not running a giant global bank like Goldman Sachs, so I don’t have that obligation. Your. I am my business. This is it, right? It all of it is just serving creators. Right. These startup founders have an idea that they turn into a project that becomes a product, and then they find a customer that likes it, and they build a company around it.
(00:52:12)
Mark Macleod
Right. Like I was the first CFO of Shopify. And, when I first showed up at Shopify, they fit in one room above a second cup coffee store downstairs. Right. And now there are 10,000 people. Yeah. That is a beautiful creative work, right? I just caught up with Toby this summer, and he’s just. Yes, he’s Canada’s richest person. He’s still the same person. Just like on a mission, right? Like he’s his mission is to make commerce simpler for everyone. And he’s not done. I love that, and I love serving that. Right. And, and it’s the same thing in music, right? Like with the artists I was working with. In an ideal world, they would just focus on their craft. They would just deliver a beautiful music, and then the rest, you know, build it and they will come. So that’s not how the world works. Yeah. So I would try and help with that. Right. And fill those gaps. Right.
(00:53:12)
Mark Macleod
And that’s why I like to have closer relationships with fewer artists, you know. And then I mean, all of these worlds connect. First of all, music is math. And I’m a CPA. I’m highly mathematical. The world, these these worlds are the same. electronic music is very structured. you know, I don’t want to use a word formulaic in a bad way, but it’s formulaic. But it’s also balancing, right? Like yoga balanced me and got me out of my head and into my body, and music gets me out of my left brain. Virgo tendencies into my right brain. Creative tendencies. Right? So it’s all about that makes me whole. Yeah. I couldn’t imagine not doing both.
(00:54:04)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. I mean, I think part of the reason why I wanted to bring it up and I think it’s important is that there I do feel like there’s lots of of DJs and artists who do kind of live this dual life. Right. And we kind of live in this world. and I’ve been reflecting on this recently, just based on some of my own investigations into, I don’t know if you’ve heard of human design before.
(00:54:22)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. and but this idea of, like, being multi passionate is, kind of frowned upon, right? In, in, at least in North America. You know, the idea is like, you pick something you’re going to you love accounting, you’re going to be an accountant for the rest of your life. And that’s just all you’re going to do. Versus I feel like especially if you’re like, I think of, I can’t remember what the gentleman’s name, but he worked with Production Music Live, a company that does courses for electronic music, and he was talking about his story and like, you kind of see what this guy’s doing. He’s doing music, but then he’s making sample packs, but then he’s teaching. And it seems like counterintuitive to the predominant idea that if you want to be successful, you have to do one thing and one thing only. You got to put all your eggs in that basket. Do you think that’s viable for for music and artists? Would you advise that for for somebody who wants to be a DJ and coming up as a DJ now?
(00:55:15)
Mark Macleod
well, so first of all, this topic came up because, you know, that I’m doing these two things right, music and business.
(00:55:21)
Mark Macleod
So it was business first, that music for me. But your students, if they’re serious, maybe they’re coming at it from music. They’re going to also have to come about it from business as well, if they want to go all the way. And there’s multiple dimensions to that. One is the marketing that we were talking about earlier. And how do you build an audience and community and get your, your number, whatever number of superfans. But there’s also a whole other business aspect to this. Do I hire a manager to like a booking agent, you know, picking the right one, being serious about my career and which labels I need to release on to kind of move up the pecking order. building you know, relationships with influencers. Like there’s all these actual business decisions you need to make. So all, all these worlds are related to me. I think you have to play in both.
(00:56:13)
Robert Simoes
You have to be savvy today, especially because I guess, you know, locality no longer dominates in terms of deejaying.
(00:56:21)
Robert Simoes
Like, if you were back in, I guess, the 90s when you were deejaying, right? It was like, don’t know how many degrees were in Toronto, but it was probably.
(00:56:26)
Mark Macleod
A lot fewer than today, a lot fewer than.
(00:56:28)
Robert Simoes
Today. Right. So you could generally kind of network around.
(00:56:31)
Mark Macleod
And also, by the way, at that time there were more nightclubs in Toronto per capita than any city in North America. So it was beautiful. You had this mix of not a lot of DJs and a lot of places to play. And now it’s the opposite, right? Yeah. But, I was about to say. Yeah. So take one of my artists, Dowden. Dowden makes his full time living in music. But it’s a pie chart. Yes. And, you know, a certain amount of it is advances for producing tracks. A certain amount of it is royalties on sales and streams. a certain amount of it is DJing. The biggest part of it is teaching people to produce.
(00:57:13)
Mark Macleod
Right. And he would love if it was nothing but deejaying. Right. But you know, he’s not there yet. Yeah. And by the way, that’s a guy who’s got hundreds of releases, right. His own distinct sound. And he has to do all those other things in order to be able to make a full time living in music.
(00:57:32)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. So it’s not really this like I guess we have this fallacy or perspective that like, I don’t know, you’re going to be some guy who’s, who’s deejaying or some gal who’s deejaying at this, like big, you know, festival or something like that. And then you get a focus only on that. These people are also having to deal with those realities of whether they’re splitting their income and their their ends meet through all these different, channels. Right, teaching. And then there’s, you know, merchandising as well. Like this. We’ve talked with this idea of the DJ as the brand. Yeah. and YouTube super important. Can you talk more about that?
(00:58:03)
Mark Macleod
Yeah.
(00:58:04)
Mark Macleod
Well, first of all, it’s, number two search engine in the world after Google owned by Google. it’s where we consume a lot of music, if you look at. So, Miss Monique, like, how did she become this global touring DJ? She just did weekly shows on YouTube, like, forever. And, eventually they took off. Now the cynical person could say, well, she’s cute, and she was half dressed and maybe. But she was consistent and just kept putting the reps in and eventually triggering the algorithm finding followers. And that led to gigs, right. So she chose a platform and invested in it. Right. And so there’s if you go to the bother of making a video like we would do visualizers not full blown like MTV videos, we would do visualizers for some of our tracks, and they just generated way more plays than if we just stuck a static image of the cover and played it like people want. It’s just, I don’t know, you’re something. Yeah, you want something, you.
(00:59:09)
Robert Simoes
Put it on like a screen or something, right? Like a TV in the background.
(00:59:12)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. And then the recommendation. Right. There’s huge discovery potential in YouTube. Right. So it very quickly sees what you’re paying attention to and recommends similar content. Right. Because they, they want you there. So it’s a hugely sticky platform.
(00:59:28)
Robert Simoes
As we wrap here. I did want to, you know, touch on this idea of, you know, advice that you would have for DJs coming up today. producers coming up today as somebody who has been doing this quite a while, as well as somebody who sat on the side of, you know, actually signing music, right. actually going out to places like Tulum, places like A.D and playing out. What would you say to somebody who’s picked up a course or is, you know, maybe learning just how to DJ and they want to get out there and start building their career?
(00:59:58)
Mark Macleod
Yeah, that actually could be the entirety of the discussion. So this will be the Coles notes.
Advice for Aspiring DJs and Producers
(01:00:04)
Mark Macleod
I mean, first of all, I’d say, do you really know why you want to do this? Is it for fame? Is it, for sex? Like, you know, I don’t know, like, I don’t think those are enduring sources of motivation. Right? Like with with my founders, my technology founders. Right. I found that the only enduring motivation is they’re in love with the problem. Like they’re obsessed with solving it. And so bringing that back to music, maybe you’re just, like, obsessed with a certain kind of sound production. You just have to share it with people. Like. So doing it for its own sake is a thing. Recognizing that it is a business and there it’s a highly competitive business. It’s hard to stand out that genuine passion, especially if it manifests in output. be that in the form of of songs, remixes, gigs, whatever will stand out over time. But you have to build a following and consistency. Yeah. And yeah. And you can build a following in your own way.
(01:01:15)
Mark Macleod
So don’t do it in a way that is fake for you, because it will come across as fake and you won’t stay at it. So find what works for you. you really have to build relationships, right? This is why I go to Amsterdam Dance Event every year. There’s nothing, even in 2024, that beats building in-person person relationships. You got to get lucky. Every one of my CEOs that I coach, or artists that broke out, got lucky in some way, right? Like, Hernan Cattaneo is the biggest progressive house DJ in the world. He opened up for Paul Oakenfold when Paul was touring the world. And Paul was like, Holy sh*t, this guy’s good. Paul brought him to the UK, but he needed that break. Otherwise, who knows, maybe he’d still be in Argentina, right? You know, so you need luck, that’s for sure. I think the people that have really stood out have built a signature sound like, you know, you hear that track and, you know, yeah, that’s this person’s track, you know, so, so many examples of that.
(01:02:25)
Mark Macleod
But maybe like Boris Brescia has come up with like his own.
(01:02:30)
Robert Simoes
Kind of genre.
(01:02:31)
Mark Macleod
High tech minimalism. Right.
(01:02:32)
Robert Simoes
I was gonna say that. Yeah.
(01:02:34)
Mark Macleod
That Kenny only plays his tracks and then he’s got like the hat thing that he wears, like. And he’s a prolific producer. He just pumps out music. And he’s also somehow threaded the lines between underground and commercial. And so many people like, I’m very squarely in the underground world, and so many artists complain about how little money they make. I’m like, dude, you’ve chosen something that’s underground. By definition, it’s not mainstream, right? Like what the.
(01:03:08)
Robert Simoes
Oh, this is the.
(01:03:10)
Mark Macleod
Bed that you got into, right? So if you want to go mainstream, fine. But then you’re playing EDM. So you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror. Yeah, I say that with total judgment.
(01:03:25)
Robert Simoes
I guess. I guess it is that, that that aspiration to kind of walk one’s own authentic path and then also be able to create prosperity in it.
(01:03:32)
Robert Simoes
That maybe is the Golden Grail, the holy Grail of of trying to be a producer and artist. Maybe. And maybe it comes back to what you said about the what Kevin Kelly said about the 1000 true fans or true fans.
(01:03:45)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. Like, listen, I’ll bring this all back to seeking. What we seek is actually here. It’s actually inside us. We do all these things. We go out into the world. We want all of these possessions. I want this fame. I want to play this festival. None of it makes us happy because we’re looking in the wrong place. We have to go in, and when we go in and truly just accept the present moment and truly love ourselves, that’s actually the place from which we can create magic and then share it with the world. Which is why I say do it for its own sake. Do it because you have to, just because you love doing it. It’s an act of love here. Here it is. Here’s the have some of my love.
(01:04:32)
Robert Simoes
Amazing. Well, if we’re going to go in, I have one request, three tracks. Okay. On repeat. Guilty pleasure. And under the radar from mark.
(01:04:44)
Mark Macleod
Like tracks that I listen to from other artists.
(01:04:46)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, it can be from other artists. Could be from any. From your own stuff. Oh, man.
(01:04:52)
Mark Macleod
Do I have on repeat? Well, I’m super into downtempo at the moment. I am playing tunes that I have a music for seekers playlist on Spotify. I’m the number one consumer of that playlist, so I’m really into these days. Well, first of all, maybe on the organic house stuff. anything by double touch? Yes. Just love them. Incredible. Love them. Group. Yeah. Pax Tulum really like them a lot. And, it’s a guy. I shouldn’t say that because I forgot his last name. I’m literally doing a remix for him right now. His name’s Tamar. he’s in the Middle East. Okay. But, I have maybe five of his tracks and like that, I’ve bought and played at events, like, just in the last few months, and, they’re all amazing.
(01:05:55)
Mark Macleod
Like, it’s because there’s this mix of Middle Eastern influence or like, traditional Middle Eastern instruments, like.
(01:06:04)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. Coupled with like very modern basslines, like very tight percussion. And there’s some kind of vocal in each track, like he’s got a he’s got a formula, but each track is different. And, anyway, I’m doing a remix for him right now and absolutely love it.
(01:06:22)
Robert Simoes
Any idea when it will come out?
(01:06:24)
Mark Macleod
I don’t know. when it’ll be done.
(01:06:27)
Mark Macleod
Some labels. Take a long time. This is one of the frustrating aspects of the music business, so I don’t know when it will be out, but it’ll be done this week.
(01:06:36)
Robert Simoes
Amazing, amazing. Well, Mark, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you and sharing with us all this, information. I found it really interesting how the coaching side of you comes out and you’re, you’re really wanting to bring all of this kind of wisdom both to the, as you mentioned, some of your CEOs and startup founders, but as well as like the the coaching of the artists.
(01:06:56)
Robert Simoes
Right. And kind of taking that step back. And I think that’s really important because I think there is that necessary projection of culture and information and wisdom that needs to happen right through so that people can find, as you mentioned, maybe that like internal because like you said, right. These external I always think of it this way, sometimes it puts so much effort into like organizing an event or something like that. And then I go, I play like an hour and a half. And I was like, I did all that for that. Like, yeah, right. And you love it. It feels great. but it’s funny how that as soon as you attain what it is that you thought would bring you so much joy, it just falls away. That’s right.
(01:07:35)
Mark Macleod
Yeah. Think of everything you’ve wanted in your life. Like, oh, I’ll be so happy when I get that.
(01:07:39)
Robert Simoes
Yeah.
(01:07:40)
Mark Macleod
And yet you’re still. This is a generic you. I’m not talking. Yeah. You’re still looking for things to make you happy today.
(01:07:46)
Mark Macleod
So obviously, those prior thousand things didn’t do the job, which is why I say it’s in here.
(01:07:51)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, yeah. So we got to find the music in our in ourselves and cheer to the world. Exactly. Amazing. Well, this has been an episode here beyond the Decks podcast. Thank you again, Mark, so much for coming. And thank you all. The the show notes will be in the episode description. So if you’re tuning in here make sure you subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, wherever you consume your podcasts, and tune in to next time when we talk more pro DJs, label managers and everyone else.
(01:08:20)
Mark Macleod
Thanks for having me, this was fun.
