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00:00:00 – Introduction to Mark Williams
00:02:29 – Mark’s Early Influences
00:04:19 – Rave Culture and Community
00:08:33 – Beginning DJ Journey
00:10:28 – First DJ Gig
00:12:04 – Mixtapes and Club Scene
00:15:54 – Starting Music Production
00:31:05 – Creative Process and Environment
00:38:16 – Changes in Hard Groove Music
00:43:00 – DJ Memory and Sound Recognition
00:49:28 – Track Recommendations Introduction
Introduction to Mark Williams
(00:00:00)
Robert Simoes
Welcome back, everybody to the Beyond the Decks podcast, your guide to mastering the art and business of the DJing and electronic music industry. I’m your host, Robert Simoes here with learning to dj.com, and we are truly blessed again to be speaking to another veteran in the world of DJing and electronic music, particularly in the world of techno today. Mark Williams has been active since 1980. Originally hailing from London, UK and now based in Sweden, he has had tons of releases on respected techno labels like Tortured, Dark House, Pure Plastic, Font, Primate, Ben Sim’s Hardgroove, Carl Cox’s Ultimate Tracks imprint and more, and he has played at landmark clubs like Medicine Bar, Fabric, The Egg, London, Ministry of Sound, Final Frontier and On and On. In 2005, Mark started a monthly broadcast show entitled The Concept Show with DJ Goran Kan, featuring guests like Mark Broom, Paul Mac, Ben Sims, Cari Lekebusch and more. And having played across countries like Spain, Turkey, Slovenia, Japan, Brazil, Colombia and for Mark has truly experienced, I guess, the full versatility of the world of DJing.
(00:01:20)
Robert Simoes
His first release was Don’t Stand on Suburban Bass in 1992, and Mark has since gone on to produce tons of technical records, as I mentioned. And in this episode, we’re going to catch up with Mark and see what he’s been up to, especially since going into retirement about 13 years ago and re-emerging in the most recent years to start producing and get back to his roots in hard groove and techno. So, Mark, welcome to the show.
(00:01:48)
Mark Williams
Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here talking with you.
(00:01:51)
Robert Simoes
Amazing. so, Mark, as I mentioned, I mean, you you have been you’ve done a lot in the world of DJing and, and and especially techno. And I think one of the things I found when I was doing a little bit of research was you have a very, enamored audience, like, people really respect how much you’ve kept it in the roots of your, of your techno origin and how you’ve stayed true to that. so can we can we start at the very beginning of your journey, where you got exposed to music and and DJing, you know, where where did that connection with, with music come from for you?
Mark’s Early Influences
(00:02:29)
Mark Williams
I think I was very fortunate to grow up, just on the outskirts of, London in Essex, a place called Hornchurch.
(00:02:38)
Mark Williams
And I was blessed because, you know, back in, in the early days of when dance music was first formed, there was so many we we just had so many opportunities because it was all so new and everybody felt you know, connected and part of something that was moving forward and was so special. so the early rave days, it was it there was so many people around who had, connections. Oh, you know, this rave is going to be happened. You want to come? And so it was a it was a very vibrant and exciting time. I was fortunate that, just down the road in Hornchurch, Darren Emerson, who was in band underworld at the time, he, was a young DJ that really inspired me to be a DJ because the first rave club I, I actually went to, he was DJing there. He was 15 years old. And, I saw him and I was like, wow, I want to do that. And, so that that was like one of the biggest inspirations because I saw this, this young guy who I knew and I thought, wow, you know.
(00:03:59)
Mark Williams
Look how the crowd are enjoying what he’s doing and how skillfully, skillfully he’s putting these, these records together, you know? so that was like, Yeah, a really big influence, in me at the time.
Rave Culture and Community
(00:04:19)
Robert Simoes
How old were you at the time that you saw this like this?
(00:04:22)
Mark Williams
I was 18.
(00:04:23)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. And so was that kind of, the sort of age that I guess a lot of people at that time were all going out. They were going to these raves and getting together and just going out with their friends.
(00:04:33)
Mark Williams
Well, well, with the people of my age. Yeah, definitely. You know, and there were, there were other people around at the time. I know that, Mark Broom was also around in, some of the similar parties that I went to at the time. And, so I was very fortunate to kind of grow in a place that had access to lots of different styles of music, and in the early days it was very eclectic. You could you could be in a bar or a or a pub and they could be, you know, they could be playing like a Balearic sound or, you know, some house tracks or some early techno and, you know, so it was great because it was just, everything was so fresh and so new and, and nobody had experienced that before.
(00:05:28)
Mark Williams
So I was very fortunate to, to actually be born at that time.
(00:05:34)
Robert Simoes
so then you I mean, you saw you saw the, I guess the DJ this the star of the show, or maybe it wasn’t even like that back then. Really. It was like on the floor. Yeah.
(00:05:43)
Mark Williams
It was pretty much everybody was just enjoying the music. There wasn’t, any focus on the DJ. It was just that at that time, I’d already really started, experience, in music from, you know, pirate stations and stuff like that. So I’d already started to build this knowledge. And then when I saw Darren in my first rave, I, I, I just thought it was amazing. It was one of the and the feeling, you know, it was it was it was outstanding. I, I cannot put it in words. You know how I felt at that time, you know, because it was just just a great experience.
(00:06:27)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. Well I guess like the freedom, right? The unity, the belongingness, maybe freshness, as you mentioned.
(00:06:32)
Robert Simoes
I mean, that’s part of the curiosity, I think, I always have this story that’s funny, which is like when I was in grade school, this girl asked me like, what kind of music I liked. And I said, like, oh, I don’t like music because I didn’t connect with any of the music that I heard on radio stations or anything like that. But then when I trawling through YouTube and found like these random, you know, old house tracks. I was like, oh, that’s it. Like that’s everything was fresh at the time. You don’t even have the vocabulary to be like, that’s house music, that’s techno. Everything is techno, I guess. Like, when you don’t have that, that vocabulary. So I imagine it was something similar to that kind of feeling.
(00:07:09)
Mark Williams
Oh yeah, definitely, because it was you couldn’t really put put it into a category. It was just great music, you know, it was music that it at the time it felt was for us because, you know, prior to that, you had, you know, you had your rock and you had to oh, punk, and you had to score and you had all different types of genres.
(00:07:32)
Mark Williams
And then dance music came along and it just it for us it was, wow, this is our thing. And, and and it completely changed because you saw certain groups of people who wouldn’t, you wouldn’t normally associate yourself with maybe beginning to, to go clubbing, you know, and go out to rave. Since I know that guy. That guy used to be, you know, one of the guys who is, you know, in a football game, and it’s like, now he’s raving and he doesn’t want to punch anybody. Okay, so that’s cool.
(00:08:12)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, I guess it. Well, it’s the community, right? like everybody doesn’t want to punch. So. So you saw it during Emerson. He was DJing. He said I want to do that. Right. You want to. Yeah. So when, when did you, I guess get into that actual practice of DJing? Did you pick up, like a pair of turntables at the time? Did you started producing making music?
Beginning DJ Journey
(00:08:33)
Mark Williams
I think basically what happened was I think maybe a few days afterwards I talked to my dad and I said, look, you know, this is what I want to do.
(00:08:42)
Mark Williams
And he was like, yeah, no problem, I can help you out there. Funny enough, because I used to be a DJ when I was younger and I was like, no, Why? You’re joking. Yeah. So? So he. He really helped me out, and I got some, turntables, and amp and some speakers, which my neighbors weren’t very happy about because I used to obviously crank it up very loud, and I used to come around and bang on the door when I was practicing. but yeah, so I started practicing. I practiced for maybe a year or so, before I felt I had the confidence to try and get some, get some work. And then I went to, a local pub. I asked the manager if I could, start DJing here, and he said, no, but I have, I told you. I said, yeah, but I can do it and have more people here. And he was like, oh, okay, we’ll give it a go.
(00:09:40)
Mark Williams
And yeah, it worked out so, so I did.
(00:09:44)
Robert Simoes
What did your dad what did your dad DJ or what kind of records did he did. Did he give you anything?
(00:09:48)
Mark Williams
He was hey. No, no, because he he was, he was a reggae DJ. He played, like, dancehall parties and stuff like that. So, yeah.
(00:09:58)
Robert Simoes
Is there any of that dancehall and kind of sky in your record collection now or as it mostly?
(00:10:03)
Mark Williams
Oh, I do, I do love, reggae music. I do have, I don’t have, a reggae record collection. I, you know, I just collected CDs and stuff like that, of reggae music. but I still have. Yeah, a huge, huge, huge, fan of, reggae. Yeah. Love that.
First DJ Gig
(00:10:28)
Robert Simoes
So, so you start at this pub, you, you get your first gig, and you actually just walked in, I guess, and you were like, hey, like, I can I can bring more people to your business, which I think sometimes is, that’s sometimes kind of the disconnect when you first start as a DJ.
(00:10:41)
Robert Simoes
Like, you have to realize that you are kind of driving, I guess, part of the, the party, part of the business. But the venue and so did the gig go. Well, I assuming you got a residency or.
(00:10:51)
Mark Williams
Yeah, yeah, it did go. It did go well. And I basically started working at pub for quite a few months. And then I, then I think basically what happened was, I’m not sure if we started going to a different pub and then. Yeah, it was the, the, the, there was another pub called The Bridge House. And then I started working at that pub instead. And that’s when, I kind of met a few other people, you know, there was yeah. Quite a, yeah, it was, it was quite a social thing. So from that then the clubs in London started to follow because, the, Darren was playing it a few clubs and, sometimes he would come down and spend a few and then basically, the other DJs who were involved in that club or like, yeah, you can come up, come up and play.
(00:11:51)
Mark Williams
So then once I started. You know, initially in a few London clubs, I built the confidence up to actually start giving out mixtapes to, promoters and stuff.
Mixtapes and Club Scene
(00:12:04)
Mark Williams
So, you know that that was the thing at the time, you know, you would record a mixtape and then, you know, if you were out in a club and you saw a promo, do you you’d pass the mixtape on and say, you, I’ll be interested in, coming in and playing a gig. And if they liked your mixtape, you know, you got them.
(00:12:24)
Robert Simoes
What were you playing at the time. Was it, was it still. Was it techno mostly. Was it. What were you playing?
(00:12:29)
Mark Williams
It was at that time it was a kind of it was mainly techno, but there was a kind of a little bit of a mix because it was I still kind of liked a little bit the kind of Balearic sound, because that was Popular with a lot of the people that I, played my music to in, in, in the bridge house.
(00:12:53)
Mark Williams
And then when I started, you know, started getting into some of the clubs, they there was also that that type of sound, like a Love Ranch was very much, had that kind of sound policy. So. Yeah. And then we’ve, clubs like, the drum club. Then it was. Yeah, it was really more, straight techno.
(00:13:16)
Robert Simoes
You mentioned that you grew up kind of down the road from, from Mark Broom and I think Ben Sims, if I’m not mistaken. And so you guys were kind of.
(00:13:27)
Mark Williams
Well, we, we, we definitely, socialized in, in some certain same places, you know, so so that was, that was really cool. And when I moved to, east London to, Bethnal Green, I was really fortunate that, Mark was also living in Bethnal Green at the time, and quite a few other people. Ben was, I think he was in Hackney at the time, so that that wasn’t far at all. So, you know, there was there could have been at least.
(00:14:04)
Mark Williams
7 or 8 different producers living in a similar area. So it was it was really a great place to be in at the time, you know. So it was. Yeah, it was good. And did did you.
(00:14:17)
Robert Simoes
Did you, did you all go out together or like, I mean, you mentioned that you sort of socialise at these different days. You would see each other run into each other.
(00:14:24)
Mark Williams
Definitely. Definitely. There were there were a lot of parties that for example, if, if, say, Mark was playing at, everybody would turn up and be there, or if Ben was playing somebody, everybody would turn up and be there. It was very, very much like that. Yeah. Now when we, when.
(00:14:46)
Robert Simoes
I was just going to say, I mean, like at the time when you’re it’s funny when we look at history and like, you see these like, I guess coincidental, you know, relationships, did you feel like there was something special happening with, like, all those prominent producers such as yourself and Ben and Mark all being in one, one place?
(00:15:05)
Mark Williams
I finally and no, not really.
(00:15:08)
Mark Williams
You know, it’s like it’s only when I look back on it, I think, wow, that was a unique time. That was really special, that we that we all happen to be in a similar area, all happen to have a kind of similar background and, and all happen to like similar things. So the, the kind of the sound kind of organically grow, you know, so it, it was. Yeah, it was really nice.
(00:15:40)
Robert Simoes
And were you was, was this at the time when you started getting into producing your own music? Or like, how did that journey you were spending some records, you did a couple of pub gigs, you were growing in that process?
Starting Music Production
(00:15:54)
Mark Williams
well, an old school friend of mine, his little brother I was DJing and his little brother came in, Matthew, and he said to me, oh, I just got a sampler on, keyboard for Christmas, which you want to make some music together. And I was like, that’s not a bad idea.
(00:16:13)
Mark Williams
I think I’d quite like that. So, a few weeks later, I went round to his place and we set all the stuff up. played a few different record samples and stuff. Really started practicing. After a month or so, we had something that we thought, oh, yeah, this is good. And then I, took it to a guy called Dan Donnelly who owned Boogie Time Records in Romford, and he also owned, Suburban Bass, records. And I played it to him and he laughed. He said, no, this is not good, mate. But I was like, okay, really disappointed. so, we went back and continued working for at least six months, and then we came up with, Don’t Stand, which he released. And yeah.
(00:17:03)
Robert Simoes
In your early in the early days, though, like when you were in that kind of like, intermediate infancy stage of, like you don’t quite have your first record out, you’re still working on yourself. Like, what were some of the challenges internally that you felt like? I think today, Mark looking at himself as like, oh yeah, that was nothing.
(00:17:20)
Robert Simoes
But maybe Mark back then, what was he kind of experiencing and how did he manage and deal with the maybe imposter syndrome anxiety if it existed?
(00:17:29)
Mark Williams
I well, you know well when you when when you’re young I don’t know if you you have that because you believe everything is possible. So I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t have any of that anxiety. It was I was just at when I played, obviously first thing that we did to Dan and he laughed. I was disappointed and a bit shocked. I was like, how can you not like this? This is amazing. This is a hit. Obviously, when I look back on it, I was like, yeah, I thought that was dog shit, but. You know? So, yeah, I think at at the time, you know, you because we didn’t have a full studio, we just had a little bit of equipment, to actually get our track finished off, we had to, go to, somebody else’s recording studio who we knew and, and, you know, pay them to finish our track off for us.
(00:18:28)
Mark Williams
So, and then after our first release, then we we got paid and, built up the studio. So, yeah, obviously it was quite expensive at that at that time to get music recorded.
(00:18:42)
Robert Simoes
Yeah, well, you’d have everything right. And then accessibility, it wasn’t like you had, I guess, dues and things like that. Right? You had similar sequencers, all that stuff.
(00:18:53)
Mark Williams
Yeah. Well, you had an, an Atari, which at that time that was the industry standard because it, it was quite solid with the timing or a lot of the other. Yeah, a lot of the other things they, they just didn’t work. And that was quite solid. However, it was a little bit of a pain because you had to use lots of floppy disks to save stuff. And, you know, and with a lot of the old school synths, you took your time making the sound, but you couldn’t save it or switch it off because you would lose the sound at that, you know.
(00:19:31)
Mark Williams
So you know, okay. Right. Got it. Get it recorded. And that was it. One take kind of thing, because you couldn’t really go back to it because you would lose the sound. And that was quite common with a lot of the old, old synths.
(00:19:45)
Robert Simoes
Do you feel like that that added a certain, like, element of kind of risk or flair that improved the production? You’re like the quality of your productions?
(00:19:55)
Mark Williams
I think because when me and Martha. Yeah, I used to at that time, I used to produce with, a friend of mine called Matthew Clayton. So when we were producing, it was like, okay, we’re going to work on some stuff today, and it would okay, we have to get it done by the day’s done, basically, you know, otherwise we may not have it when we come back to the studio tomorrow. Even though we did used to leave the equipment on we we wasn’t guaranteed that it was still work. So, we would try to get as much done as possible, and sometimes it worked out.
(00:20:32)
Mark Williams
Sometimes, you know, it didn’t.
(00:20:34)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. I just imagined, like, it would add this, like. I mean, maybe it’s an uncomfortable pressure, but it’s it just is. I feel like sometimes when you produce especially like my own stuff, it’s almost easy to get lost in the experimental, you know? That’s right. You could, like, design your sound one particular way and they’re like, oh, maybe if I just add, like a little bit of modulation here. And then that opens your mind up to a completely different path, and then you sort of get, well, I get lost in the brain, the branches.
(00:21:02)
Mark Williams
Yeah. I completely understand exactly what you’re saying. You know, I’ve, I’ve learnt for me, it’s best. Well, this is just a technique that I have. I spend time actually just making sounds. So I’ll take one day and I’m just making sounds. That’s all I do. And then I’ll say, okay, today I’m just gonna make some grooves.
(00:21:24)
Mark Williams
I’ll make some grooves. Sometimes it will go from just making a groove. Oh, but this is really good. I’m going to finish this into a track, but it works better because like I say, sometimes you can spend hours And then you think, oh, I haven’t made anything yet, but you can always go back to it, you know. So I’ve, I’ve started on tracks, got a few minutes into it and I’m not really feeling this anymore. The energy’s gone down, so I just leave it. It’s like I’ve got a a track forthcoming track, coming on Mark Broom’s Beardman label and I started that track, I think maybe 13 years ago. So, you know, it’s an idea. It’s never bad. It’s just it may not suit what you’re working on at that time. So save everything. You know, it’s it’s quite important because you you’re always changing. You know, you don’t. You’re not the same person you was yesterday. So you you don’t always feel exactly the same.
(00:22:32)
Mark Williams
You know, sometimes you can be feeling quite sad or moody and then, you know, some of those feelings can be incorporated. It’s like one of my favorite tracks is at a time when stuff wasn’t going so great for me, and I used those sad, emotional feelings that I made a track from. And I still get goosebumps to this day when I listen to that track. So, you know, it’s sometimes you just have to go with the flow and just, create a weave with what you’re feeling at the time. And don’t be so critical that you know it’s not good because you it may just be the wrong time for that feeling or emotion or track.
(00:23:23)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. No I and I completely resonate, I think about some of the, I think about some of the things that I’ve produced when I’ve been in an extremely sad state. Right. And I think there’s definitely a relationship between sadness and beauty. or that, you know, we use, I suppose, art as a conduit to transform or transmute those emotions into into beauty, which in and of itself, definitely.
(00:23:47)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. Maybe isn’t the healthiest thing all the time, but it’s, Yeah, but it’s.
(00:23:54)
Mark Williams
A good type of therapy.
(00:23:56)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. No it is. And what you said to you about this, I what it sort of came in for me is there’s this concept in like uni and psychology of like synchronicities. Right. Which is like meaningful coincidences that happen in life. So it might be objectively, there’s no, you know, the fact that I have this book here on the side, like last night of my life, it might objectively mean nothing, but subjectively, it might trigger some sort of cascade of memories or ideas that are meaningfully, coincidental. And then that kind of helps emerge and create, you know, products or art or anything like that because it helps you access this whole side of your brain. I guess that you weren’t. You weren’t thinking about it. This whole set of memories and things. so even that melody that you might have wrote 13 years ago or ten years ago, you know, triggers those old emotions.
(00:24:44)
Robert Simoes
And then you think about all the ways, I guess, that you’ve processed and what you’ve learned, perhaps. Yeah.
(00:24:49)
Mark Williams
Yeah, definitely. For sure. I agree with you. Yeah. It’s,
(00:24:56)
Robert Simoes
And so how did you sit on, like, how did the process of sitting on a track for like, 13 years work? Because I just would I think about myself and I would think how, like, much you’d be like, yeah, but I want to. I want to, like, put it out into the world. How do you deal with that feeling of like, is it ready?
(00:25:12)
Mark Williams
I think the thing is, I, I feel that everything has its time in place. And, you know, I’m very fortunate to be here right now reaping the benefits from everything, having its time and place because, you know, the music that I loved and was so passionate about years ago. It’s now come back around. and people are also enjoying it. It’s a whole new generation of people who are, you know, getting into the music I make.
(00:25:44)
Mark Williams
So I’m, I’m, I have myself blessed to be here, to be able to, like, show people what what I do, you know, so it’s really nice. It’s it’s great.
(00:25:59)
Robert Simoes
And that kind of leads really well into, you know, you mentioned this, like, new generation coming up and appreciating things like hard groove, like tribal techno. Right. This is like kind of like resurgence. And it’s really interesting to see that because even like I don’t know, five years ago I think I watched like Ben Sims, his boiler room set in London. And it was at that I was like, I’ve never heard anything like this before. And that sound has been has been growing a lot. But before we, I guess, step into that, you took a bit of a retirement about 13 years ago. Can We talk a little bit about that and what spawned that. You you know, as I mentioned in the introduction, you had done so much. You played at all these amazing clubs.
(00:26:41)
Robert Simoes
Why go into retirement, Mark?
(00:26:44)
Mark Williams
Basically, long story short, my son was born 13 years ago, and, and I felt that it was time to kind of, hike back and be a more responsible family man. and plus, I the passion for the music had had worn a little bit thin for, like, when when you’ve been doing something for for quite a few years. I mean, it it’s difficult to continue to have the same energy, you know, as I did when I was 18 years old, you know. so when my son was born, we decided to move to Sweden. I moved to Sweden. I did a couple of gigs in Stockholm and then I was like, nah, I’m done. I’m just gonna, you know, focus on the family and stuff and, yeah. So, and then, decided to, you know, that was. Yeah.
(00:27:51)
Robert Simoes
Now, did did was there any difficult I imagine there’s a tremendous difficulty like, like letting go or releasing that part of that side of your identity.
(00:27:59)
Robert Simoes
How did you deal with that as the artist?
(00:28:03)
Mark Williams
As an artist? So I, I dabbled for several years, continuing to, to make music, but it wasn’t it wasn’t anything that I truly felt, passionate about because I felt this connected with the music that was out there at the time. so, and then after a few years, I was like, okay, well, you know, that’s that. And Then, you know, my computer got stolen, and then I was like, okay, well, that’s the end of that.
(00:28:40)
Mark Williams
Yeah. so, and then I think it was was it might be two years ago, I think. Ben Sims asked me if I’d be interested in, you know, making some more music again, and I jumped at the opportunity. I was like, okay, this is cool. So I started producing some stuff and kind of started getting excited and started listening to me more music. And I was like, ha, okay, seems like there’s a resurgence in the kind of hard groove sound.
(00:29:15)
Mark Williams
and, so I sent off a couple of tracks to Ben and I was quite excited about it. And then he replies, like, oh these are shit mate, you know. So I was like, okay, great. Right.
(00:29:29)
Robert Simoes
Same experience.
(00:29:33)
Mark Williams
So, after a few months afterwards, you know, I continued work in different staff perfecting because obviously I’ve been away from a for a while, and I just kind of thought that I still could, you know, do be at the same level that I was when I finished, but I wasn’t. You know, so it took at least 4 or 5 months before it started to kind of get get myself back into it. but now, yeah, everything is is all great. You know, I, I, I make music every day without fail, because I, I feel that now I understand, my true gift because it, it’s easier to continue to make music every day because the whole process becomes easier, you know, if, if, and I mean, because I, because when I retired also, it was very difficult to, to, to come up with ideas and stuff like that, but now it’s, it’s, it’s very easy, I think, because I’m, I’m constantly, creating it just keeps giving.
(00:30:53)
Robert Simoes
It’s like like a waterfall almost. It’s like the more. Yeah. Velocity or momentum that you have the more. And are you finding that you just, you have different things pop out in your environment and they trigger. Yeah. Exactly.
Creative Process and Environment
(00:31:05)
Mark Williams
Exactly, exactly. It’s like any experience can, can trigger an idea. It’s like, you know, I could I could be walking through the forest. I was like, oh, you. But that’s that’s quite, Yeah, exactly. You know, just certain sounds can pop up. I was like, oh, wow. Okay. You know, so I’m always Creating. Even if I’m not actually sitting in front of the keyboard or the computer, there is always a creative process going on in the head. And, you know, fortunately with new technology, I can just either hum something or just take, a note of, of, a line of something or a line of thought of, we. Yeah. So it’s, and, yeah, it’s it just happens very easily now.
(00:31:59)
Robert Simoes
Is, are there different mediums like kind of cross mediums to music that you, you draw from or that inspire you a lot, like painting, art, film, anything like that?
(00:32:11)
Mark Williams
I, I still like lots of different types of music. I also try to make different types of music, because I want that creative process to always feel fresh. So, you know, I’ve, I haven’t released any different styles, but, you know, it’s always, trying to perfect a particular sound is something that I quite like to do. so I’ve kind of been messing around with different sounds, and then sometimes you’re like. But I can use that. What I was working on in this. You know, so, like what I’m saying, it’s like you don’t everything has the right time in place. And if you are trying to perfect a different sound, then that’s growing your skill. Because every day, you know, you, you know, learning about something different if, if you, if you’re not doing the same thing all the time, you know, you have to learn how to get to that place, you know.
(00:33:08)
Mark Williams
So I think for me that’s that’s very important.
(00:33:13)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. That really resonates with with me because like you said, I mean if you’re constantly producing the same thing it can get a little bit stale right. you know, there’s only so many different ways, I guess you can add open high hat and the clap and the kick, you know. Yeah, the infinite number of ways, but but but adding kind of, you know, or exploring different genres even like I’m really, enjoying like salsa and, and bachata and like looking at these kinds of things. Right. And then you kind of pull different samples and you’re like, oh, that’s interesting. Like, and then I guess opens the, the creative, the creative space.
(00:33:52)
Mark Williams
Yeah, definitely. And that that just reminded me of, when I played in, in Brazil, a place called the Love Club. And, it was such a great experience. I was like, yeah, I have to make an, an EP called Love Club, you know, because it just obviously it’s like, wow, it’s such a great vibe, such great people and the whole experience.
(00:34:20)
Mark Williams
Really. yeah. And And plus as well at that time getting a few, negative samples as well. Stuff really helped.
(00:34:31)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. Is there any is there any like tools or rituals that you have with regards to capturing these emotional or euphoric highs that you have right where you’re something like your in love club, do you do like a journaling practice or anything like that where you, you capture the emotions or do you try to just get it into music concretize these melodies as soon as possible?
(00:34:52)
Mark Williams
No, I think, It’s just memory, recall, to be honest. And, I, I quite like physical exercise because I can also it allows me to access that different part of my brain without actually thinking about it. If I, for example, if I go out on AA57 10-K run, you know, I know that I’ve got that time to just think about whatever I want and and and, like, free thinking, you know, it’s it’s a great thing because, you know, after the run, I’ve got.
(00:35:35)
Mark Williams
Okay. Wow. All of these ideas, maybe these can be useful. Maybe if I try this and I try that sometimes I can come back with not any ideas for music, but it could be how to deal with different situations in my life that’s going to help my music be better, you know? So it’s allowing the free, free thinking, as I like to call it, is great. And I also like I have a period, I like to go to the gym, and the gym is also a time of. Yeah, because you just. Okay, so so I’m there for 45 minutes. I know those 45 minutes. I can just think whatever I want while I’m doing my exercise. So that helps with the creative because there’s always something that’s like, yeah, I’m going to do that when I get back. yeah.
(00:36:26)
Robert Simoes
So kind of like an emptying out.
(00:36:28)
Mark Williams
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
(00:36:31)
Robert Simoes
And then you guys have those, you know that because there’s that emptiness then. Yeah. The inspiration can kind of flow in.
(00:36:38)
Mark Williams
Yeah definitely. I think also as well I’ve always I when, when I was a little bit younger, me and Matt had the time in the studio and if we got to a point, okay, it doesn’t seem to be progressing anywhere. I’d say I need time out and I’ll just lie on the sofa ten, 15 minutes and then. Okay, now I’m ready. Let’s go again. And the inspiration will be there. Yeah. So I think just sometimes stepping away, doing something different to allow mind to have a little bit of space can also bring forward the creativity. And still to this day, I find that working at night on music, I a lot more inspiring.
(00:37:30)
Robert Simoes
Interesting? Yeah, yeah. Do you think it has something to do? Go ahead.
(00:37:35)
Robert Simoes
I was just curious. Do you think that has something to do with also environment that that music is played under? Right. You go to dark clubs, you go to, you know, night.
(00:37:45)
Mark Williams
Yeah. I suppose it must. I suppose it must have, you know, could you, you, you can kind of, when I’m working in, in my home studio, I have the lights down low and, you know, you just kind of it’s a similar mentally environment, you know, it’s, dark and, you know, you’ve got the music pumping, so you, you know, you it’s similar vibes going feelings in, in, in your body and stuff. Yeah, yeah.
Changes in Hard Groove Music
(00:38:16)
Robert Simoes
So shifting gears just just partially here as we as we get closer to the end of the episode here, we talked a little bit about this kind of growth of hard groove and tribal techno now kind of again in the world. And I just want to get your, your thoughts or take on kind of the macro macro view and your impressions so far of of what’s, I guess been the changes in hard groove today versus back when you were, you know, producing. I guess in the 2000, I watched one of your I was on the electronic beats TV YouTube channel.
(00:38:47)
Robert Simoes
They did a blind test where you had to listen to the records and hey, I was like, I’m super impressed by the encyclopedic memory of all the DJs. but then be it was, it was kind of cool to hear the, the changes in the sound. So I would just love to hear, you know, what? What is your perspective been on newer kinds of, music coming out in that genre that inspires you?
(00:39:10)
Mark Williams
I think especially with music, it’s everybody’s Interpretation of a particular sound. So, you know, you have the younger people who didn’t have the same environment as the original producers. Look at it completely different because, you know, when I was, my inspiration was the music that I first started listening to, you know, in the early, early like 80s.
(00:39:47)
Mark Williams
You know, so, so it was that kind of really, you know, the kind of house kind of Chicago type, stuff was it was what the early kind of music I heard in the raves was what really inspired me and what I loved.
(00:40:06)
Mark Williams
And I was like, yeah, but I want to do something that gives homage to that, to that sound, you know? So that was what You know, a lot of us at the time thought about Hargrove, who was like, yeah, I just want to hats off to those producers, you know, because it was when you when you were in a arrive and those, like an early Todd Terry track came on. It just had such a sonic feel about it that you hadn’t heard before. And I just think we wanted to kind of pass that on. So, so this is this is what inspired me. You know, that that was. Yeah, definitely. That was.
(00:40:55)
Robert Simoes
Are you are you finding then like a, I guess a lack of that or you don’t hear that same sound in the newer tracks coming out in this kind of sub sub area?
(00:41:09)
Mark Williams
it’s difficult to say because I think certain sounds can be. Instead of coming from the original source, they, they, they have come from, a source that had already been used two times over, for example, if you know what I mean.
(00:41:30)
Mark Williams
If you if you’re talking about a sample, I, you somebody could use a sample that it’s already been resampled three times so it doesn’t have the same effect as the original sample. you know, and, and, and for example, a new person may not even know what that original song was or was about or or how know how much of an impact that song actually had on certain people, you know.
(00:41:59)
Robert Simoes
It’s kind of like that, that musical history a little bit like going in and looking. It’s almost like kind of layers. Right. Especially I mean I don’t maybe we’re 70 almost 50 years past the 70s right. When we had a lot of that stuff coming out and being able to to like, dive because like, maybe you heard maybe you heard a crack with that sample, but then you think that that’s the original and then you don’t realize 2 or 3 layers deeper. It was like some funk track.
(00:42:31)
Mark Williams
Exactly, exactly. And I think that that is something that, you know, if if it’s possible, you know, to to give out a little bit of knowledge about where the original sound came from and what inspired it.
(00:42:46)
Mark Williams
So it’s quite nice to that. I have, people around who are like, okay, I really like what you’re doing there. How did you get that that sound? Well, it’s from that track, you know. Yeah, yeah.
DJ Memory and Sound Recognition
(00:43:00)
Robert Simoes
And it’s, I think that goes back to, I read this this line about there’s something about the DJ’s mind that is like, it is like an encyclopedic memory, and it is like it’s, as I mentioned, with that blind test hearing test. Right. It is. It’s wild how, among all the records or tracks that you’ve ever heard, somebody able to say, oh, that’s a detour on track, but oh, that’s, you know, that’s this or no, how do you.
(00:43:25)
Mark Williams
You know, it’s funny because I used to, when when I was at my peak, I, I could have say maybe 140 records and know exactly which record was going to mix into each record, at what time and where and how. And and that was all be like from memory.
(00:43:46)
Mark Williams
So it wasn’t a case of like, okay. yeah. I don’t really know how I yeah. It’s like, oh hell yeah. But that, that’s a Ben Sims record. And that’s going to work perfectly with, say this, this mark boom record because they had similar drum patterns or similar sounds, you know, and, and also as well, you know, Certain key sounds as well. Yeah. And I mean.
(00:44:14)
Robert Simoes
It’s, it’s I think that’s the thing I find, you know, so fascinating. I wrote a, I wrote an article, I guess it would have been a year ago now about the difference between producer, the producer mind versus the DJing mind. And it was funny because I met a producer, I was talking to him and he was saying, oh, I identify more as a producer than I do as a DJ. And I was like, oh, that’s interesting. because he said, DJs are collectors. They like to collect things. And I think it’s a combination of collecting and and categorizing.
(00:44:42)
Robert Simoes
There’s something about mind of a DJ that as you listen to more things, you just you naturally create this. Like we have our own internal frameworks of what we think a sound is, as you mentioned, right. There’s like a 2000 version of Hard Groove versus, I guess, a 2024 version of Hard Groove. And our minds just can’t help but like, put them in the boxes somehow.
(00:45:04)
Mark Williams
Definitely. And and that, with me, if I’m, gigging, I? It doesn’t work for me to be producing. Like a few days before gigging, I have to stop getting to DJ frame, you know, and. Yeah. And then stop that back into production head. So two completely different things for me that they are they are not the same. And, you know, I’ve tried to to have that combination, but it really doesn’t work for me.
(00:45:42)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. I had a friend of mine and she says that when you’re producing, it’s like problem solving, like it’s like you’re putting on your problem solving hat and they’re like working on logical puzzles.
(00:45:54)
Robert Simoes
But then when you’re DJing, it’s almost like painting, right? You’re just like, you’re just mixing and things just flow. There’s no problem to solve or anything like that.
(00:46:03)
Mark Williams
Yeah, yeah, I can, I can, I can agree with that because, you know, it is very much about How you can take that journey from from one place to the other with the best flow, and you know how to get from that low to that peak in the best way. You know, I think, you know, and like you say, it’s with production, you you have certain sounds or rhythms and stuff and it’s like, okay, how am I going to put all of these together to get a good sound? And it is just like, because, you know, you throw the sounds in, oh no, that’s not work. Take that out. Now, what about that? Oh, I’m not sure. Now I’ve put that in, but I’m not sure. Does it sound better or does it sound worse.
(00:46:58)
Mark Williams
You know, and there is always that issue going on. And then sometimes you just need to okay, I’m just going to go for a walk or do something and then come back to it and it’s like, yeah, it’s fine, it works or it doesn’t work. I mean, I unfortunately I did you know, I’ve done tracks and I thought I’m just going to put this sound in because he’s going to sound ill. It will fill it out and make it a better track. And then after the track’s been released, you played out a few times. I wish I could have put that sound in.
(00:47:34)
Robert Simoes
That is a very horrible feeling.
(00:47:39)
Mark Williams
But it’s it’s not happened so many times, but it has happened, you know, and I think that sometimes you it’s good just not to rush things, you know, just to, just to like take the time. It’s going to take.
(00:47:53)
Robert Simoes
I think I think part of the difficulty with that too is as the creative mind, like, I was reading a bit about the Russian author Dostoyevsky and his creative process in writing, you know, the great novels that he wrote.
(00:48:06)
Robert Simoes
And, We only see the end products, right? We only hear the end products, but we can’t see all the paths that could have been taken. Right. And that’s kind of the torture of the of, as you mentioned. Right. You’re like, I wish I didn’t put that layer in there because we know what it would have sounded like without it. Yeah.
(00:48:25)
Mark Williams
Yeah, definitely. And I think also as well, it’s for example, you know, people hear a finished track, but I, you know, especially we’ve made a lot of the music that I have made. The finished product could be the sixth version. You know, it’s not the first. It’s it’s most probably, you know, because I’m like, okay. Yeah that sounds good. No, no, I don’t like I know I need to change that part or change this or you know, so it’s, it’s a sometimes it’s a constant. Sometimes it happens very quickly in a very organic and you know, but that’s very rare for me that that doesn’t normally happen.
(00:49:06)
Mark Williams
I like to work on. I’ll have an idea and then I’ll work it through until it’s until it’s done. That’s why sometimes, you know, people say, oh, you’re. But you know, that track sounds a bit similar to that track. Yeah, I know, because that track really is just a different version of that track. And they both sounded great. So I was like, okay.
Track Recommendations Introduction
(00:49:28)
Robert Simoes
Release them. But, I love that Mark. Well, I do want to, you know, we are going to wrap here because I want to make sure that we can get to just one last section. I think I did brief you on it, but three tracks, we’re looking for three track recommendations from you. one for each category. So we have on repeat under the radar and your guilty pleasure. So on repeat is a track you’ve got on repeat right now. under the radar is a track that you you really enjoy. You really love. It could be present past, but you just feel like it doesn’t get as much play as you would hope.
(00:50:01)
Robert Simoes
And then guilty pleasure. You know anybody’s choice. It could be anything you want. Maybe some reggae records.
(00:50:09)
Mark Williams
I think. On repeat. it it it would be. It’s a Ben Sims track called The Key. And that record I haven’t taken out of my record box, you know. and I think it may have come out on dark house music, 2003 ish maybe. I’m not sure. But, you know, for me, it’s it’s it it’s fantastic. I love it, it’s I don’t really know how to know what it’s about that track, but for me, it’s just great. Yeah, I love it. That’s so, so that that I don’t know if I’m ever going to take that out of my record box, to be honest.
(00:51:04)
Robert Simoes
Amazing. So on repeat, we got Ben Sims. The key.
(00:51:09)
Mark Williams
and then, I think. That track, guilty pleasure, is a track called, Intra introspective, which I, it was a track that I did on dark House. and it’s just got some emotional keys in it that still, just just really move light and that, I don’t know, it’s.
(00:51:48)
Robert Simoes
Yeah. All right, I love that. Okay. And then under the radar.
(00:51:52)
Mark Williams
Under the radar. I. Don’t really know what that would be, to be honest Yeah. sorry about my mate. yeah. I’m not sure what that.
(00:52:11)
Robert Simoes
If you want, you can send one to me after. I can put it in the in the show notes there. We’ll give you some time to noodle on it and we’ll put it in the show notes. Well, thank you again, Mark, so much for joining us. Truly been truly been a thrill to to trace all the, you know, the roots of the roots of hard groove and travel techno and your journey and now coming back with, you know, some great releases like you mentioned on Beard Man and then, moving forward with all the gigs and DJing. So, I just want to thank you again so much for coming on on the podcast. And to all the listeners, make sure you subscribe on the, you know, available channels, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, on YouTube, where you can be watching this and see all that and we will catch you next time.
